Old Footage of Soke Hatsumi Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu Ninjutsu
May 8, 2010 by soke
Filed under Soke hatsumi
This is some good footage probably from the 1970’s of Soke Hatsumi and several Shihan in their younger days training.
May 8, 2010 by soke
Filed under Soke hatsumi
This is some good footage probably from the 1970’s of Soke Hatsumi and several Shihan in their younger days training.
@BlackShinobiShozoku usually the the ones that criticize the linages point at Takamatsu as the “critical” point just because he is the one that collects them all. I knew Fumon Tanaka teached Tenshin Shoden Kukamishin Ryû and a sort of Takagi Yoshin ryu but not Gyokko and Koto ryu. Ueno Takashi Chosui I did know but he was a student of Takamatsu. From where did Fumon Tanaka lineage for Gyokko and Koto ryu come – if not Takamatsu I mean?
Tanemura – who was a student of Hatsumi… yea I know.
And furthermore in the future I’ll probably join Genbukan.
@sirseigan
To be honest i’m not saying Hatsumi is fraudulent in his claims of Ninjutsu…
but I’m just waiting for japanese expert scrutiny of his densho. For those three Ninpo schools.
@sirseigan
The lineage does involve Takamatsu… BUT Densho for Gikan Ryu is provided by Tanemura Soke.
Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu are both taught independent by Fumon Tanaka
@sirseigan
Ah, I know Stephen Turnbull.
But all I know about Oda Nobunaga was that he attacked Iga merely because of his sons failure.
@BlackShinobiShozoku Haha we do mean the same but say it two diffrent way then. Yes they were most likely samurai skilled in ninjutsu not ninja skilled in combat. Iga samurai was very famous for their bravery but also for there unconventional style of fighting… The region around Iga and Koga have allot of ryus and most of then focus on the “combat/samurai” part.
@BlackShinobiShozoku And thats Gossip that, as far as I know, can’t be verifyed. Where do you find completly independent Gikan ryu, Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu
linages that do not involve Takamatsu Sensei?
@BlackShinobiShozoku One Ryu was called Hontai Gyokkoshin ryu and its first soke was Suzuki Taro Kanomaza (aka Daizentaro Chikamaza) who had been student of Sougyoko Kan Ritsushi (Soke in Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu). The Ryu change it’s name after 5 generations to Izumo Ryu Koppojutsu.
There is also a Gyokkoshin ryu Koppo listed in Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and the first soke is Sasaki Gendayu Sadayasu (Kishu) who also had been a student of Sougyoko Kan Ritsushi (Soke in Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu).
@BlackShinobiShozoku I don’t have the sources name in front of me at the time but the document is mention by Stephen Turnbull (well known east asian Historian) in one of his book in the subject – you can look for the firsthando source name there.
@sirseigan
Which documents did Nobunaga comment on Koka and Iga?
@sirseigan
True, but there’s nothing really to say that there’s Ninja created combat techniques or Ninja specialized warriors.
They were most likely Samurai skilled in NInjutsu.
@sirseigan
What do you mean fake ryu?
It’s just not koryu. I’ve heard that argument before… But actually Hatsumi was said to be rejected from koryu groups due to the densho not surviving japanese scrutiny. Although Hatsumi claims he never tried to join. But so far there hasn’t been any evidence to support the three ninpo schools. All the other 6 ryuha do have grandmasters are completely independent of Bujinkan. And are accepted koryu.
@sirseigan
Gyokushin ryu is a style of koshijutsu.
Who was the Soke of this Gyokushin ryu koppojutsu?
Because the only recorded Gyokushin ryu I know about is koshijutsu which was claimed by Bujinkan org to be created by Sasaki Goeman Teruyoshi.
Do you have any proof other wise?
Boku ga shitte iru kagiri, uso da
@BlackShinobiShozoku Bugei Ryuha Daijiten does not mean it has proven lineage you are so right. But if it would be a fake ryu it wouldn’t be there – they do a little bit more research than that and have access to Japanse historical record on whole diferent level than most has.
Do you know why they are not considered koryu? Because Bujinkan do not teach each ryu seperatly but mixed toghether and therefore it can not be considered a koryu.
@BlackShinobiShozoku As I said “the best SHORT translation would be “unconventional warfare” I did not say the literal translation. The term is much wider than the literal translation.
@BlackShinobiShozoku As you might know I is sometimes hard to translate a term directly from one language to another – especially Japanese to english – as the do not use the same metaphors or communicate in the same way.
忍 (nin) can mean: bear, endure, put up with, resistances, patience, tolerate, secrete, conceal, sneak. So if we take it word by word it can also mean “the technique of patience” as the “technique of stealth”. Stop being so categorical in you definition and open your mind.
@BlackShinobiShozoku Togakure ryu has denshos of ju-jutsu (aka taijutsu) that is not a part of Bujinkan. Gyokkoshin ryu had a bransh school kalled Gyokkoshin ryu Koppojutsu that is not – and have never been – connected to Takamatsu or Bujinkan. Do your homework before you state your opinion as fact.
@BlackShinobiShozoku According to documents of Oda Nobunagas comments on Iga and Koga-shu not all of them were Samurai and they did not pay same attention to social rank – and he did not like it!
I can repeat my self if you’d like: Ninjutsu was not thought independent of “combat” as Bugei Juhappa and Togakure Juhakkei was thought together. And Shinobi Happo Hiken (8 techniques) involves both Ninjutsu and “combat”. Even other schools that has “Ninjutsu” teach them together with “combat”.
@sirseigan
Ninjutsu does not translate as “Unconventional”
Nin translate as preservation of endurance or stealth.
@sirseigan
All of them were samurai.
Ninja were trained in Bugei Juhappan.
But they also learned Ninjutsu. Which is independent of combatic arts.
Bugei Ryuha Daijiten does not mean it has proven lineage.
Those ryu where not considered koryu by many of the best koryu groups. Those ryu also do not have independent schools outside bujinkan.
@BlackShinobiShozoku As I said – you are to narrow minded if you say: “It was espionage and strategy” because it includes so much more then that. The best short translation you can do is “Unconventional warfare” – witch also includes combat in various forms. I makes sense; why should only the “strategy” be able to be unconventional and not the Taijutsu to?
@BlackShinobiShozoku Of course they where samurai (at least some of them) and of course they where trained in what we today call jujutsu. But more important they where train in Shinobi happa Hiken and/or Ninpo Juhakkei wich include both what you call “Ninjutsu” and “Combat”. Speculation none has proved. There are sources outside Takamatsu and Bujinkan that prove that at Togakure and Gyokkoshin ryu is legit and they are also in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten.
@sirseigan
They were trained in samurai jujutsu.
Because they were samurai.
And I do not believe Kumogakure, Gyokkushin, and Togakure to be legit because their lineages have not been proven. Togakure has a claimed long history, but not proven. Some speculate that those three schools were created by Takamatsu. And that’s why no one will accept them as Koryu. Most people refer to martial arts as art of combat. Which Ninjutsu was not combat. It was espionage and strategy
@BlackShinobiShozoku
My definition of the term used is:
Bujutsu = Techniques/Art of war
Kenjutsu = Techniques of the sword
Taijutsu = Techniques of the body
Ninjutsu = Techniques of unconventional warfare (“Black ops”?)
@BlackShinobiShozoku So Ninjutsu was also developed by Samurai is your conclusion? In that case I totally agree with you. But you are to narrow minded if you just think espionage. Unconventional warfare I would say would be mor correct – especially how you assault fortifications and make them fall with just small assault force. All historical record shows that that was what Iga and Koga-shu was hired to do most of the time. A elite strike force trained in unconventional warfare – including MA.